並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%8F%B0%E8%82%A1%E5%A4%A7%E5%AD%B8%E5%A0%82-%E7%96%BE%E9%80%9F%E9%A3%86%E9%A2%A8-_QBZu0kdg-O/